B: It's crucial. I mean I just wander there's so much to talk about here. Let's take a contemporary example, it's found out from Google, where Google says, it wants to be in China, but it's under cyber attack, and it's also been obliged to follow admittedly the local regulations, but is censoring materials. And the western world does not understand why is Google under attack, why are other companies around the world under attack, cyber attack. What is the issue here?
巴：这里有很多东西要谈。举谷歌事件为例，谷歌称在中国受到黑客攻击，并且被迫遵守审查制度。西方不理解，为什么谷歌和其他跨国公司遭受黑客攻击，问题在哪里？
F: I'm not following, so I don't know the inside story. But Google is certainly a news maker in China. I remember early last year Google China apologized for having a lot of obscene contents and they promised to improve. That's what I read. And then later in that year they were in the dispute with the China Written Works Copyright Society because it put a lot of writers, 500 writers' works online without their consent. And now Google says it's under cyber attack. Cyber attack is a problem in China and all over the world. And you probably know which country has the best hackers.
傅：我没太多关注谷歌事件，不知道内幕，但谷歌在中国确实制造了不少的新闻。去年上半年，谷歌中国就因为网站上的低俗、色情内容而发表道歉，并承诺改进。下半年，谷歌又与中国作家协会发生纠纷，原因是谷歌未经同意就把500多名中国作家的作品放到网上。现在谷歌又说受到攻击。黑客攻击是中国也是世界各国普遍面临的问题，你应该知道哪个国家有最厉害的黑客。
B: Best hackers? Better even than the Chinese?
巴：还有比中国黑客更厉害的吗？
F: I don't think there is anything particularly notable about China on this issue. But about the censorship Google complains about, Google has been in China for four years. And I've seen the continuous reform in China in those four years, and there's definitely a further improvement in the transparency and in the services for Internet. So if Google could come in four years ago, and now there's continuous improvement and Google is finding fault, I don't think it's a clear picture. I don't know why it's being so politicized. But China is in the middle of reform, and most of things in China are in a process of being gradually improved. And the key thing is that the government has to respond to the development, the situation, and respond to, on the one hand, the importance of maintaining political stability, which is the key, which is really essential, a condition for China to continue to grow, and on the other hand, the changing horizon for the government, every government is confronted with this new challenge.
傅：我不认为中国在这个问题上特别突出。谷歌开展在华业务已近四年了。四年来，中国一直在进行改革，网络透明度和服务都有明显改善。如果谷歌四年前可以在华经营，现在情况改进了，反而做不下去了，令人费解，我不知道这个问题为什么要被如此政治化。中国处于改革进程中，各方面都在逐步改进。政府要对发展负责，对国情负责，一方面要保持稳定，这是中国实现持续增长的必要条件，另一方面是政府转变观念，这是每个政府都面临的挑战。
B: Indeed. But that's the critical thing you said, which is what you respect, which is political stability is crucial for the continuation of Chinese reforms, and so in a sense, we may have to censor the web, we may have to do certain things that you don't like in the West, but this is essential we keep reforming, raise living standards, and that's important for the government.
巴：你是说，政治稳定对中国持续改革至关重要，所以在某种程度上，需要进行网络审查，需要做一些西方不喜欢的事，但这对中国不断改革，提高民众生活水平很重要，对政府很重要？
F: The correctness of policies in China has to be tested by the reality, not by how you feel but by the development in China. I think over the past three decades, compared with the previous three decades, China has found the right path and is finding the right balance between maintaining political stability while making changes, which is one of the most difficult challenges for the governments in the developing countries.
傅：在中国，政策的正确性必须由事实检验，用发展来检验。与新中国前30年相比，后30年中国逐渐找到正确的道路，找到保持政治稳定与改革之间的平衡点，这是发展中国家政府遇到的最艰巨挑战。
B: One China expert said to me the other day that it was really very important to understand that the present leadership, they experienced, and this includes yourself, they experienced the Cultural Revolution, the absolute chaos, the Cultural Revolution first hand, and nobody wants a repeat of that.
巴：一位中国问题专家曾对我说，现在中国的领导人亲身经历了文化大革命那场浩劫，没有人愿意这样的灾难重复，了解这点很重要。
F: That's definitely. I remember the day when people came to take my father away, a very tall man. He was looking at me in the eyes and said, "This is great democracy. Do you know what is democracy? " And I shook my head. So he said, "That's the trend of history. You will be swept away by the trend of history".
傅：一点不错。我记得那天有人来把我父亲带走，一个很高的男人，他俯身看着我的眼睛说：“这是大民主。你知道什么是民主吗？”我摇头表示不知道，他说：“就是历史的车轮”。
B: Why would you be swept away? Because you were a land owner?
巴：为什么？
F: No, but that's the first time I learned the word "great democracy". So democracy without the rule of law, or freedom without the rule of law, is anarchy.
傅：那是我第一次听到“大民主”这个词。没有法治的民主，或者没有法治的自由就是无政府状态。
B: Do you think you have the rule of law in China?
巴：您认为中国有法治吗？
F: We are building it. I think basic rule of law is there. We have not seen such intensive law building in the Chinese history. The property law, the labour law, used to be very controvertial. It took long years to debate it, but we still adopted it. The opinions of the public were collected.
傅：我们正在建设，我认为中国已基本实现法治。中国历史上从未经历过如此大规模的法制建设，《物权法》、《劳动法》，这些有争议的法律，几经辩论，征求公众意见，最终还是通过了。
So I think the rule of law and the democratic decision making process have also facilitated the development of human rights. I remember in the '80s when I was an interpreter, human rights was a constant subject and the issues people came to China and raised were long lists, but most of the issues do not exist anymore. I don't think the outside world, the western world realise how much progress we are making.
法治和民主决策也促进了人权进步，我80年代当翻译时，西方人谈人权，总是给我们提出长长的单子，现在大部分单子上的问题都不存在了，而外界并没有充分认识到我们所取得的进步。
It was an American, I was accompanying him visiting Shanghai, and he said, "you don't have freedom in your country". I said "What?" And he said, "Look, for example, you don't have the freedom of movement. You can't come and live in Shanghai". And I said "But I need the money to buy the train ticket. I need a coupon to survive in Shanghai." But now, look at China, two hundred and twenty million Chinese farm workers are living and working in the cities. We are producing plenty of food for everybody to move around. That's, I mean, that shows human rights cannot be separated from the economic conditions, affordability and cost of living.
记得那时候，一个美国人跟我谈中国没有自由的问题，他说，“例如你们中国人没有迁徙自由，你就不可能到上海生活。”我说：“我可以去，但是我必须有钱买火车票，再有了粮票才能在上海生活。”但看看今日中国，2.2亿农民工在城市打工，我们生产出足够的粮食，人民可自由迁徙。这说明，人权的进步与经济发展、生活水平提高是不可分割、息息相关的。
B: Yeah. Why do you think that people should stop thinking that the leadership in Beijing got no secret plan? There are enormous domestic challenges that you outlined. China is such a big success story. Why sometimes you get the sense of people being insecure. Is it because it worries about territory integrity? Worries about the neighbourhood? Worries about...
巴：如何让人们相信，中国领导人没有称霸世界的秘密计划？他们关注的是国内大量的挑战，就像你提到的那样。中国取得了巨大成功，为什么还有不安全感？是担心领土完整、与邻国关系，还是其他原因？
F: Who is insecure? China insecure or outside world insecure?
傅：谁感到不安？是中国感到不安还是外界担心中国统治世界而不安？
B: The Americans are definitely insecure about China. This is the first serious challenge since the Soviet Union. China doesn't have an offensive military power, it is defensive. The Americans are having to adjust to this, but at the same time the Chinese, as you say they are a bit insecure.
巴：美国肯定对中国感到不安，这是继苏联后另一个严峻的挑战。中国的国防是防御性而不是进攻性的，美国需要了解这一点，但同时你也提到，中国人有点不安。
F: I wouldn't call it insecurity. I think it's a challenge. A challenge both for China and for the world. China was a strong manufacturer of the world. In the Ming Dynasty, or until the early 19th century, China was still one of the biggest manufacturers in the world, and China was never a global player. China never operated at the world stage. China was more a domestic power, introverted and populous. So it's the first time China is assuming this role. There's no history to go back to, unlike Russia. So for China, to understand the world, the rules of the game, understand and be able to manage this new role, to explain itself to the world. It takes time. We need personnel to do that.
傅：不是不安而是挑战，对中国和世界而言都是挑战。中国曾是制造业大国，直到明朝，或者说直到19世纪初，中国还是世界上最大的制造业国家，但中国从未有过做世界大国、在国际上发挥主要作用的经历。中国历史上总体上是一个内向型的大国、土地大国、人口大国。现在是中国初次担当这个角色，不像其他国家那样有历史经验可循。对中国来说，了解世界，了解游戏规则，认识并且胜任这一角色，向世界说明自己，需要时间，也需要人才。
B: you need interpreters, I mean the big word interpreter, not someone else, but somebody to interpret China to the rest of the world.
巴：中国需要能向世界说明中国的人。
F: China has grown, but for the world, China is the new paradigm, and a new story to tell the world, new narrative. It's probably the first power the world is witnessing assuming that role through economic growth, by making for the world, making the toys, the shoes, ties, shirts, pure labour, and without military aggression or politically imposing its system around the world, without guns to open the market. We are trading with the world. For such a power to last, to be successful, we need a peaceful environment, we need a friendly environment, we need the rule of game of the world for fair trade. So China's foreign policy is for peace and cooperation. Because only in peace we can grow and only through cooperation we can work for the world.
傅：对世界来说，中国是新模式、新故事。中国可能是世界上第一个通过经济发展而非通过武力入侵，用枪炮打开市场或将政治制度强加于人而成为世界大国的国家。中国靠劳动为世界生产产品，玩具、鞋、领带、衬衫，与世界开展贸易。这样的大国要想成功，需要和平友善的环境，需要公平的国际贸易规则。中国外交致力于推动和平与合作，只有实现和平，我们才能发展，只有通过合作，我们才能共建世界。
For the other side of the world, they haven't seen such a power, and all the powers who came in the world destroyed. There would be power competition and then would be one power replacing another, so that was the old track. So I debated this with a lot of scholars, and for them, this new paradigm does not exist, can't be proved, can't succeed this way. But for China, for the world, maybe it's a matter of choice. For China, there's no other way. China cannot go into war with other countries, because of the domestic, I mean, the weight is always heavier at home. First, we still have 60% of people in the countryside, and the disabled population in China is bigger than the population in UK, 83 million. So if we use the UN standard of poverty, the poverty population in China triple to 130 million, now it's 40 million at the domestic level. So this country will for a long time to come mainly focus on itself. And that's why the Kingdom, for thousands of years, has not been having an ambition for the world, so busy with itself. And so China's reform is halfway. It's going to take another few decades for us to, maybe coming to the end the reform. So for the world, I don't think the world understands China. That's why it sets it a barrier. They don't understand China. They don't see China as we see China, because, maybe language is the problem and the stereotype.
但外界从未见过这样的大国，历史上常见的是大国相争、生灵涂炭、相互取代的老路。我和许多学者讨论过这一点，他们认为这种新模式不存在，不会成功。但对中国来说，没有其他路可走，中国不能与他国开战，因为国内事务很繁重。首先，我们还有60%的农村人口，中国的残疾人口比英国总人口还多，有8300万。按照联合国的贫困标准，中国的贫困人口是1.3亿，按我们国内的贫困标准计算，现在是4000万。中国几千年来都没有统治世界的野心，而是忙于自己的事情，中国还需要很长的时间才能完成改革。我认为世界并不了解中国，外界对中国的看法和我们自己的看法不同，也许语言是问题之一，还有思维定式。
B: Which do you think the stereotype is?
巴：什么思维定式？
F: I think the stereotype is, I think the West, for western world, it's difficult to understand China both for political reasons and for cultural reasons. Culturally I think the West, a British scholar explained to me, the West and the occidental world has been dominating the global culture, political culture for hundreds of years, so they don't see there's another possibility. They don't see there is another narrative. So they have difficulties accepting China. That's what I said, they always believe their roofs are the best.
傅：西方很难理解中国，这既有政治原因，也有文化原因。曾经有一位英国学者解释说，西方统治了全球一二百年，看不到其他模式的可能性，很难接受中国。就像我说的，你们总认为自己的屋顶最好。
B: That is a good image. What do you think the western stereotype is of China? Arrogant?
巴：这个比喻很好。您认为西方对中国的思维定式是傲慢？
F: Not entirely. I understand not only from conversing. but when I make a speech, people ask questions. I think they probably see China in a Cold War perspective, the other side of the Cold War. The Cold War has become something of a basket. Everything associated with the cold war – the western perception of Eastern Europe, or the former Soviet bloc…… People will put it on the head of China. They see China as terra-cotta warriors. Take climate change as an example, China has an emission intensity cut figure. It is a decision based on consultations among provincial heads and ministers. But in (Copenhagen) negotiations, some of the western countries think that China can change the figure because in the Chinese system, if leaders said Ok, everybody follows. They think the decision making process in China could be that simple. They don't realize there is such a democratic decision making process in China.
傅：不只是傲慢。我从对话和提问中常感到，西方人看待中国存在冷战思维，视中国为冷战的另一方。冷战成了一个筐子，所有有关冷战的看法都往里装，包括对前苏东集团的看法，然后扣到中国头上。此外，还常常视中国人为毫无生气的兵马俑。以气候变化为例，中国制定了降低碳强度的目标，这是集体决策，是征求各省、各部委意见后做出的决定。但在谈判中，一些西方国家总认为中国可以更改这个数字，认为如果中国领导人发话，下面就得跟着，中国的决策过程就那么简单，他们不了解中国有自己的民主决策过程。
B: I think it is a collective decision. But I think it is a raw calculation of China's national interests, which everybody agreed on. And I think this is a brilliant job of diplomacy in …, so smart. You wait for all European to demand, oh, Please China, could you possibly do this? You got all developing countries on side, even the one that had reservation on your stance, and you got exactly all you wanted, which is no monitoring by outside because Chinese sovereignty is key. You played it brilliantly.
巴：这是集体决策，但以中国的国家利益为依据。在哥本哈根，中国取得了巨大的外交胜利，非常聪明。你们让欧洲人恳求中国多做一些，把所有发展中国家拉在一起，甚至那些对你们立场有保留的国家。你们得到自己想要的，即不受国际监督，中国主权最重要。你们干得太漂亮了。
F: Well, what I am saying is that for people to say China can make decision that easily is not factual. Keep 1.3 billion people in one line is not easy. National interest is part of interests here. What is national interest? Interest of everybody. They are individuals. If for example, people in Gansu want electricity, telling them you cannot as you got to cut emission. You will get stuck where you are. You cannot do it. So Chinese government has reflected the interests of its own people, and that is not appreciated here. They think it's some kind of individual decides and everybody follows.
傅：我是想说明，说中国决策简单，人们只会服从有失公允。让13亿人保持一致并不容易，要照顾到每个人的利益，个人利益合在一起就是国家利益。举个例子，如果甘肃的人民想用电，你说不行，因为这会导致排放，这样就无法解决问题。西方往往没有认识到中国政府代表了人民的利益，总认为在中国是领导人决策，大家服从。
B: I see that. I understand that. Let me just take up that comment you made about cold war. Cold war, where we see you, China, I don't believe this is true, by the way. We disagree, but you say we have an old way to look at China through cold war lens. There is one area I agree ... Why you put up with this crazy individual, maybe it's not crazy in North Korea, it's so dangerous, it's bad for image, seriously heavily nuclear armed state. Why does China just do something about it?
巴：我明白了。让我们回到冷战，你说，我们带着冷战的有色眼镜看中国，我不同意。我想知道，中国为什么要容忍北朝鲜那个狂人，一个危险的核国家，对中国形象也不好，为什么中国不做点什么呢？
F: You have developed your views about North Korea from your standard again. China is not telling North Korea what to do. China is not measuring North Korea according to our standard. North Korea is a neighbor, like any our neighbors. Afghanistan has a problem. The other neighbors also have problems. We have 1300 km common borders with 2 million Korean ethnic minorities on the Chinese side. It's a neighbor which we share lots of interests. 2 million ethnic Koreans. My driver is a Chinese Korean by the way.
傅：你又一次根据自己的标准评价朝鲜。中国不为朝鲜做主，不会指手划脚，不根据自己的标准衡量别人。朝鲜是我们的邻居，和其他邻居一样有自己的问题，阿富汗有阿富汗的问题，别的邻居也有别的问题。我们和朝鲜有1300公里共同边界线，中国境内有2百万朝鲜族群众，这是和我们有很多共同利益的邻国。顺便说一句，我的司机就是朝鲜族。
B: Well, so, but they got nuclear weapons. It has been cheating international community.
巴：但北朝鲜有核武器，他们一直欺骗国际社会。
F: If you talk with North Korean, they think they are cheated. For North Korean issue, I think, it's not that simple, not that simple. There is a history of relationship with the west. So, to treat this issue, we, our attitude is not coming in to tell, to judge the North Korean, telling them where they are wrong and where they are right. They have to find their own way, come out of it. We came out of our difficult time. So they should find a way to come out of their difficult time.
傅：朝鲜则认为是自己被欺骗了。朝核问题没那么简单，其中有与西方国家的历史关系因素，解决这个问题，我们的态度是不要教训朝鲜，给他们下定论。他们需要摸索自己的解决之道，从困难中走出来。我们也是从困难中自己走出来的。
B: But people are starving in a nuclear armed state.
巴：但这个核武国的人民正在挨饿。
F: Well, from their point of view, if they don't have nuclear weapons, they would have been invaded by the United States. I don't believe that. But North Koreans need to believe that, not me. For nuclear issue, one of the difficulties is lack of trust between North Koreans and Americans. So for North Koreans, they think they would go nuclear if they are under threat; or they would talk if Americans are willing. But Americans, allowed chance, they would talk if North Korean are willing. They would not put the military choice off the table. So there are two choices. We think, the other two choices, Korea going nuclear and US using arms are equally unacceptable.
傅：他们认为不发展核武器，就会被美国侵略。应该让朝鲜相信不会被侵略，但问题是朝鲜和美国缺乏互信。朝鲜认为，受到威胁就要发展核武，如果美国人愿意谈，他们也愿意。美国人则表示如果朝鲜愿意，可以谈。但他们不会排除军事选择。我们认为，朝鲜发展核武和美国使用武力都是不可接受的。
B: Clinton never gonna do that, I mean, that was the deal in 1994.
巴：克林顿绝不会那么做，1994年就有协议安排。
F: 1994 did not work out. American blamed North Korean for not delivering; North Koreans blamed American for not delivering. If you go to the field, you'll see, nobody delivered. So we think we started from scratch. We are not going to judge. So we should start from here. If they trust each other, let's move on. So they still don't trust each other. It's going to take long time. By the way I sometimes quote Hamlet, the famous quote "to be or not to be". I would say talk or not to talk, that's the issue. Because for us we don't support North Korea to go nuclear, nor support US using arms. We only support the talk. They give up the other two, keep the talking part.
傅：94年协议未得到执行，美朝相互指责对方未履行协议。我们不想评判，希望重新开始，如果双方能开始建立相互信任，就继续谈判。目前他们还是缺乏互信，解决这个问题尚需时日。对了，谈判中，我常引用哈姆雷特著名的“生存，还是死亡？”的句子，并改为“谈还是不谈？那才是问题”。我们不支持朝鲜发展核武，也不支持美国使用武力，我们只支持对话，两国应该保持对话，放弃其他选择。